The Great Intern Debate - Are Unpaid Internships Illegal?

I recently came across a discussion on the Connecticut Board of Radio-Info calling internships into question. Why should radio stations not pay interns? This is, of course, relevant to other industries. But I'm going to stick with radio here for the most part.

A little of my history... I got into radio at the age of 24, which is actually kind of late to get started in the industry. I was a student at Southern Connecticut State University in New Haven. I was a part of the college radio station, WOWL, and absolutely fell in love with radio. Part of my curriculum as a Communications major was that I had to do an internship. There were 2 major radio stations in the area... WPLR (99 Rock), which was a rock station, and WKCI (KC 101) which was a CHR. I always preferred rock, so the natural inclination would have been to go to WPLR. However, I knew a number of people who interned at both stations, and the folks that went to WKCI seemed to always get hired out of their internship, while WPLR gave them a handshake and sent them on their way (for the most part). So I gritted my teeth and went to 'KCI. And 3 months after I started interning, I got hired part-time to run the board for the "Rick Dees Weekly Top 40". After that, they started giving me weekend airshifts, and I eventually got hired as the Full-Time Assistant Promotions Director. And it happened because I worked hard in the internship. When I wasn't at school, I spent my time at the radio station. Doing anything I could to learn what was going on. Since then, I have worked as the Marketing & Promotions Director at stations such as WTIC-AM, WTIC-FM (96.5 TIC), WRKO-AM, WRKI-FM (I-95), and WDBY-FM (Y105). I have also had the good fortune to be an air personality at WKCI-FM, WQGN (Q105),WDAQ-FM (98Q), WTIC-FM, WRKI-FM, and WDAQ-FM.

In order to write this post, I wanted to see what others thought. I conducted a very intense, focused, and expensive survey. OK, I posed the question on my Facebook account and let my friends comment.

To begin with, interns receive college credit for their internship. Essentially, it's a class. You don't sit through a history class in college and collect a paycheck at the end of the hour. Interns are going to their radio station to learn about the business and whether or not they even want to get into radio as a career. Anne said, "I loved my internship at WPLR.. was there for 4 years,
learned all kinds of good things... like I didn't want to work in commercial radio! Very valuable information when your still in college trying to figure things out!"

And Gina points out that, "My college internship at Z100 in NYC was a fabulous experience, both professionally and personally. I lived with a cousin and his family for the summer. This type of experience forces you to be resourceful, responsible and teaches the value of hard work. Too many young people today expect everything to be handed to them...entitled to be compensated for merely existing! There's no need for a person who's not even left college with a degree yet to be paid...they have no experience to hang thier hat on and they are there to LEARN, not to be paid. Payment comes when you've earned a hired position there. Internships are a great way to get there."

The problem becomes that people view interns as unpaid labor. I suppose, in a sense, that it is. I know that when I was running internship programs, I completely depended on them. But, again... college credit. They have to be there AS IF IT WERE A CLASS. And when the time came that I needed to hire a new staff person, guess who I hired! Think about it... wouldn't you rather hire someone that you already know than someone from the outside? When I was at Cumulus in Danbury, I probably hired 50% of my promotions interns into part-time promotion coordinator positions. My Program Director would also hire them as part-time board operators and personalities. Not bad for your first real radio job! Greg mentioned, "Unpaid internships are like getting a clunker for your first car - you need to be humbled before moving on to better things." It's true! I've seen too many people walk into my radio stations thinking that they could do (and deserved to do) whatever they wanted!

The first rule of radio is that you're not nearly as good as you think you are. The second rule is that commercial radio is NOT anything like college radio. Do you think you're going to come in, start off in Afternoon Drive, and get to play whatever you want? Think again... You're most likely going to start off in the promotions department, helping us to set up remote broadcasts, hanging banners, giving out prizes, and LEARNING TO TALK TO THE PUBLIC! You see... it's more than just hanging banners. You need to get out and learn who the listeners are. The station is more about them than it is about you. Why are they fans? What do THEY want to hear? What do THEY want the radio station to be? After that process, you may get the chance to run the board for a syndicated show or get a weekend overnight shift (some stations still put people on at 3am), and for that... you will be paid. Probably minimum wage, but paid, nonetheless.

Wherever I worked, internships were primarily in the promotions department. Simply, it's the place that needs the most help. Unfortunately, in this day and age with automation, there is not really anything for an intern to do in the studio. I would encourage them to go into the studio (with the DJs permission) and just sit there and absorb. Todd made an intersting comment,"I believe a good internship allows for the intern to embrace the roles that peak their interests and shape their long term credibility. They should also be allowed to avoid what disinterests them. For instance an aspiring radio news reporter intern should NOT be assigned to assist the sales department. Chances are this model of freedom could only exist if the intern is NOT on the payroll. Once you are compensated by someone else, you are under an obligation to meet their requirements and expectations" I actually don't agree with this. A good internship is going to give the intern a well-rounded vision of what goes on. Maybe they thought they were interested in news, but after getting exposed to the sales department, maybe they would decide that perhaps that is the direction that they want to go. The cool thing about interning in promotions, is that it is one of the only dpeartment that interacts with every other department in the station.

Most radio companies require that that the internship exchange for school credit. Therefore it's NOT illegal because the student is actually receiving something. As Samantha points out, "If interns are getting college credit or trade school credit, they don't need to be paid and that should be legal. But if you are hiring an "intern" and not requiring that they are getting credit, the company should pay at least minimum wage or else it is free labor. Too many companies are trying to save money by eliminating paying positions in favor of having interns do the work." I actually see both sides of this argument. When I was running the internship program at Cumulus in Danbury, I was allowed to hire interns who were NOT doing it for credit. And the simple fact is that they were, for the most part, better interns. These were the people that wanted to do it because they loved radio and wanted to get their foot in. Interns doing it for credit were sometimes there only because it was a "blow-off" class.

Kirk feels that interns should be paid based on what they do, "It depends on the quality of the program too. Most of what I did was marketing, not broadcasting. No one asked to hear a sample hour of me on cassette or explained a format clock to me. That all happened at WXCI in college. My coop was at WTXX (a television station) in Prospect and that was much more hands-on. The GM and I had to meet every week to see what I was doing. That never happened at RKI. So, I should have been compensated at the "I" but not at TXX." This raises a good point... my question for Kirk would be did he ask anyone to listen to an aircheck or ask to have clocks explained? He may have... I didn't know him at the time. But to get the most out of an internship, the person has to ask. You will only get out of it what you put in. If you show the Program Director that you are interested in these things, I'm sure he/she will go out of the way to help. Corey, who is a chef and not in radio (but certainly knows about it second hand because he is my brother) mentioned "For my industry, I think a short unpaid stage is OK...but not a full internship....with this said...once hired, it is the Chef's responsibility to train you for your station...the other stuff you want to learn....that's up to you to make yourself available and pay attention too."

Kirk takes a different point of view than me... "It really depends on the internship. College students should be paid a stipend. Back in the 80's, I Interned for I-95 (WRKI). I mostly drove all over Fairfield County delivering I-95 Gazettes to advertisers without being compensated for gas and mileage. I accepted this because I knew that it was an opportunity. Bruce Goldsen and I did a Remote at the New Milford Burger King once and I did the Oyster Fest. What I got out of it was some concert tickets and T-shirts, Bart Gannon would let me fool around in the Prod Room while he was on the air. What I learned is that there was no way that I'd be on the air without experience; which is why I enrolled at WestConn for WXCI." I don't believe they should be paid a stipend. I DO believe that hey should be reimbursed for expenses such as gas. Or better... they should be allowed to drive the station vehicles. Get the logo out on the streets! But some insurance companies don't allow it because technically, an intern is not an employee. When I was with I-95, interns WERE allowed to drive the station vehicles.

And then there is the question of the fact that owners are laying off people by the thousands. If they are not paying the experienced, why would they pay the people trying to learn? As Andrea says, "If radio stations have to pay for interns there won't be any. Radio stations are too cheap to even keep seasoned part-timers on staff, do you really think they would shell out any cash for someone with NO experience?"

I think what it comes down to is whether or not you really want to break into the business. If the person is trying to learn the industry, there is no better way to do it then through an internship... whether it's paid or unpaid. Like I said before, if you are doing it for credit, it's a college class. I also believe that if you are doing it as a "volunteer" (not for credit), it's your choice. I volunteer for the American Cancer Society handling publicity for a local Relay For Life. Should I start insisting that the Cancer Society pay me? Of course not! I do it for personal reasons, and truthfully, for professional reasons, as well. I have been very open in that the Cancer Society is an organization that I would someday like to work for. My hope is that they would take my work as a volunteer into consideration when deciding whether to hire me. If a radio station hires an intern for credit, it's not illegal. And if they hire a volunteer, I don't think it should be considered illegal. That person is doing it for a chance to gain experience in an industry that they might have no hope of breaking into otherwise. And besides, they are getting all kinds of perks like concert tickets and t-shirts!

Crazy Radio Stalker Story

We've all seen them... they come out to every remote your station does. They call in constantly on the listener lines. They show up unexpectedly at the radio station at all times of the day. Yes, I'm talking about the crazy P1 stalk... er... listeners.

While I've never had one of my own stalkers, I have had the experience of sharing one with the rest of the airstaff. We'll call her "Linda" for the sake of argument and to protect the guilty.

I was working for a rock station, and "Linda" was a huge fan. She was "39 year old heterosexual female, liked to smoke Marlboro cigarettes, and drink Budweiser Beer." How do I know this? She put it in the letter that she sent to one of our morning show hosts. I should also mention that the letter wasn't written on stationery or even on a nice sheet of paper. No... it was written on a series yellow post-it notes that also included a crudely drawn map for said morning host to find her house! "Linda" also sent every single one of our jocks a letter that day. Each one personalized, and written in a different form. Aside from the post-it notes letters arrived written on paper, 3 x 5 cards, and even one written on an envelope. Not all of us received maps to her house, though.

"Linda" also had the habit of showing up at remotes to just hang out. The first time I met her, we were doing a remote at a Quiznos. It was also the day of our annual listener halloween party. She was the first person at the remote and proudly told me that she was coming to the party that night. I had no idea at this point who she was or how I was inviting a world of crazy upon our doorstep. I politely thanked her for listening and wound up giving her a t-shirt. But she stuck around for the entire remote to help us "promote" the radio station, and by that, I mean scare people off! And true to her word, she showed up at the Halloween party that night. In fact, she was the first on line! While we were still setting up! At this point, she had integrated herself into our lives and thought she was one of us.

There was one particular day when I decided to go to one of my favorite delis for lunch. I took one of the station vehicles (get the logo out as much as you can). As I was leaving, I heard someone call my name. I looked up and "Linda" was standing on the porch of the apartment over the deli. I didn't know until then that that was where she lived. "I saw the van and thought you were coming to visit!" Ummm.... no. Now I can never go to one of my favorite delis ever again!

Coming soon, I will tell you about "Bob"... who is even crazier!

Harness the Power of a Five-second Commercial

(repost from June 24, 2009)

I sold my first five-second radio commercials back in 1975. (For the record, that's thirty years before Clear Channel would proclaim "Less Is More" and with great fanfare begin offering five-second "adlets" or two-second "blinks." Twitter founder Jack Dorsey had not yet been born. Heck, Al Gore hadn't even invented the Internet, though he may have been toying with the idea. But I digress.)

I started selling five-second ads because a legendary radio sales trainer taught me how effective they could be. He wasn't alone. The Radio Advertising Bureau also reported that some stations were having success with what they called "eight-word ads."

There are at least three advantages to shorter ads:

1) They force the ad writer to craft a clear, concise message. There's no room for "fat" in a five-second ad.

2) It's much easier for a listener to comprehend, retain, and recall a short message in its entirety. It's in-and-done before the listener can even react to it! (Stick around and I'll share with you a powerful technique for demonstrating this effectively to a prospect.)

3) Because five-second ads cost less than :30's or :60's, the advertiser's budget buys him greater frequency (more repetition of his message).

Short ads can be deployed to trip the recall switch, reminding the listener of something he's heard about in greater detail in a longer commercial. Think of this technique as "clutter busting" - referring not so much to the other ads on your station as to all of the messages that bombard us daily everywhere we turn, from computer monitors and cell phones to the chatter of our co-workers, from in-store POP to ads on public benches, buses, billboards, and buildings, television, newspaper, magazines. While there may be disagreement as to how many advertising messages we see or hear in each day, we can agree that there's plenty of competition for a listener's attention. We live in an age when distractions are plentiful.

So, let's say you've sold your client a schedule of :30's or :60's to get the word out about his big store-wide sale. His commercials include a number of price-and-item illustrations, maybe a special financing offer, prize drawings, and so forth. Let's imagine that he's running ten commercials a day for ten days, and these ads are scheduled to run between 6:00 a.m. and 7:00 p.m. Assuming even distribution, he's running one ad every 78 minutes.

By adding just ten five-second ads per day to his schedule, you've doubled his frequency, cutting the time between exposures in half. Add another ten and now your listeners are being reminded about his sale every 26 minutes. The marginal cost of the additional five-second ads has tripled his frequency!

All other factors being equal, this advertiser is going to enjoy better results from his buy on your station, which ought to bring him back for more.

Sometimes longer ads aren't even necessary. It's quite possible to build an entire campaign around five-second ads exclusively. I have a client who for many years has sponsored the weather update following network news at the top of the hour. His five-second message - usually a positioning statement, but occasionally a call-to-action - runs once an hour, 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. For all intents and purposes, his advertising message reaches the station's entire audience.

Every listener, every day.

Think about that. How many of your advertisers can claim with reasonable certainty to reach every single listener on your station during the course of a day or a week, let alone all year long? It's terrific exposure, and much easier for an advertiser to achieve and afford with a five-second ad.

The proliferation of satellite-delivered syndicated programming has all but eliminated the flexibility most stations once enjoyed when it came to scheduling commercials. If your station does all its own programming, consider yourself fortunate, indeed. You still have the freedom, or at least the potential, to schedule ads of any length, in any combination, at any time. The world is your oyster. Go for it. Stations whose programming comes via a bird in the sky have little choice but to fill fixed-length breaks with fixed-length ads at fixed times, with few opportunities for deviation from the :30/:60 standard. It might be worth sitting down with your Program Director and asking him to identify any possibilities for running short ads (such as the :05 weather sponsorship mentioned earlier).

If you are able to identify and secure the appropriate inventory, and you're ready to put it to work for an advertiser, here's a technique you can use to demonstrate to your prospective client the power of a five-second ad:

First, write the copy. Create the actual message that you're going to propose the client run for this campaign. Take the time to make it a good one. (I recall this Jim Williams classic: "Don't Make a $500 Mistake. Bob's Used Cars.")

When you're sitting across from the prospect, tell him, "I'd like you to help me with a little experiment." Pause. Make sure you have his undivided attention. Then, read the five-second copy aloud, with appropriate feeling.

Read it a second time.

Read it a third time.

Then, ask him to repeat what you just read.

In most cases, he'll repeat it verbatim without hesitation.

"You've just demonstrated the power of a five-second ad. I read it to you only three times and already you have it memorized, the whole thing."

Rehearse the advantages of the five-second ad with him:
1) forces lean, concise copy;
2) more easily understood, retained, and recalled by the listener (as he just demonstrated)
3) allows more frequency within a given budget

Then, present your proposal. Make the sale. And enjoy the results.



More than three decades ago, I used to drive the 55 miles between Winona and Rochester, Minnesota, two or three times a week. One Sunday I tuned in to Chicago's WGN (720 AM) and kept it there to hear what was happening in my old hometown. I don't remember the name of the host (though as I recall he had the most wonderfully soothing rich bass voice), but to this day I do remember two ads that he read live, several times each, during the course of my commute:

"Seven-Up, the Uncola. Chicagoland's Number One Refresher."

"Chapped Lips Need Blistex. Buy Blistex."


I swear, I never intended to memorize them. It just happened.

Like magic.

Intro from Dan Walker Smith

Hello, just a quick intro from me: I'm Dan, I'm a journalist from London. I started out in radio, like so many before me, with a show on college radio in Edinburgh, before moving down to London to be a broadcast journalist.

I had various freelance jobs in broadcasting before moving into print journalism, though I kept a couple of shows going on community and college stations. A year or so ago I won the Alistair Cooke Award for Journalism, which led to a Fulbright Scholarship studying at Stanford. This gave me the chance to get my teeth back into proper broadcasting - I had a couple of shows on KZSU and I wrote my MA thesis on how podcasting is affecting traditional radio. I love radio, I'm fascinated by podcasting, and I'm keen to see the audio format thrive.

So what you'll get from me is a British perspective on what's happening over here. It'll all be quite light-hearted, and chances are it'll be general commentary, rather than an inside scoop. If you've got any questions you want me to consider, just drop me a comment, and I'll see what I can do. Cheers, DWS.

Oh, and this is what I look like:

Hi... My Name Is Eric. And I'm a Radio-Holic.

Hi there! My name is Eric Seigel and like many of my radio brethren, I'm currently unemployed. OK, not completely. I serve people coffee at Starbucks. But I'm otherwise unemployed. I have a long history in radio...

Here's a quick resume... I started in 1992 as an intern and Assistant Promotions Director at WKCI (KC 101) in New Haven, CT. Did some on-air there as well. I spent the summer of 1995 at WQGN (Q105) in Groton, CT on-air. From 1995 to 2000 I worked at WTIC AM&FM in Hartford in several positions including on-air, Promotions Director, and National Sales Promotion Director. Somewhere in this time frame I also worked on the client side as an Account Director for a radio promotions agency called TMPG. In 2000, I got a call out of the blue inviting me to interview for the Promotions Director job at WRKO-AM in Boston. I took the job and stayed a little less than a year. After a stint of unemployment, I got out of radio and became a fundraiser for the Muscular Dystrophy Association. Although, I wasn't out of radio completely. I started doing weekend airshifts at the radio station that I grew up listening to. WRKI (I-95) in Danbury, CT. When the Marketing Director left, they offered me the job. Which I promptly turned down. 5 times. Realizing how much I missed the business, I eventually took the job overseeing marketing and promotions for both I-95 and WDBY (Y-105). 3 years after that, apparently it was time to "make a change". 2 years after that... well, I can make a mean 1/2 caf grande non-fat sugar-free vanilla extra carmel carmel macchiato.

I'm looking forward to blogging about my experiences. A lot of my posts will be about radio through the eyes of a promotions person. I hope that you find them interesting and leave comments. I have a personal blog (which sorely needs to be updated) where you can see my resume (you know... if you're hiring) called Blogged Down.

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